EP 15: Let's Be Aware of Our Mental Health

Joining our conversation in this episode are mental health experts and hosts of HeartsChat: Erica Johnson, MFT and Akilah Robinson, LMFT. 

In many cultures, and especially in ours, mental health isn't discussed or widely recognized. Akilah and Erica share their journey to becoming therapists, being therapists during the pandemic and best practices to start thinking about own mental health and self care. 

Have you thought about your own mental health? Do you have a self care routine? Take the time to think about your mental health today and take care of you!

Transcript

Hey, y'all welcome to United AF, as friends podcast. A show where we try to unravel the complexities of our multi-cultural friendship and existing as millennials in today's world. Every other week, we'll get together for a deep dive into how our friendship has survived and have some laughs while doing it. We're your hosts, Amanda Justine and Taylor.

Taylor: [00:00:23] Today on our episode for mental health awareness month, spotlighting mental health in people and millennials of color. We have the wonderful ladies from Hearts Chats, radio show coming to visit us Erica Johnson and Akilah Robinson. Thank you guys for joining us today. And we hope to hear some wonderful expert opinions and advice from two of you in this current pandemic worlds, and how to properly address the issue and get the help that is needed and information that is needed out to people like us, who oftentimes don't see it. 

Akilah: [00:01:05] Absolutely.

 Taylor: [00:01:06] I'd like you guys to introduce yourselves. What made you guys start Hearts Chat? Give us a little bit of your background, whatever you want to share with us. 

Erica: [00:01:13] I'm Erica, I'm a family therapist. And the reason I started Hearts Chat was originally when I first started as a therapist. So as a therapist is a process you have to go through. And I was really, and I'm excited now, but I was really excited when I got started. And so when clients were coming in, somebody might come in and I might think, okay, I know what to say about this, or I know how to resolve that issue, but you can't just come out and do that. It's a process. So I started a blog called From Erica's Heart. And with the blog, it was just a question to answer . So there wasn't that therapeutic process you have to go through. It was just right away and it was really fun. And so then I thought, what if I started a talk show kind of just with the same idea with the Q and A, so Hearts Chat has gone through a lot of trial and error, different process to get to where it is today. And then also I watched a lot of talk shows. I've always watched a lot of  talk shows and different radio shows. And I would hear it kind of just the idea of keeping it real and kind of the idea of keeping it real, but just hiding behind that when really you're just being harsh. So I wanted to have something that was a bit more gentle, which is why it was called from Erica's Heart and then now Hearts Chat. And it's just what it sounds like. It's, Hearts Chat where we speak from the heart and that's really what it's about and how I got started with Hearts Chat.

 Akilah: [00:02:29] And Akilah Robinson and Erica and I actually went to grad school together. So that's  how we met. And so Erica asked me to join Hearts Chat. I was like, of course I love this. Just a little bit  about me. I'm also a licensed marriage and family therapist. And the same kind of with Erica, the same thing she's been saying, therapy is a process and  why I got into therapy. I guess we can go into some of that, I think it was kind of most therapists when I, when you get asked that question, you're like, we gotta fell into this. This is what we do. We've always been this way in some kind of, in some kind of way, but I would say for everyone who went to high school with me, Mrs. Arena's psychology class was the first time that I was introduced to  psychology on that level. So from then I was like, this is where I need to be. I want to, I've always wanted to help people. That was a big part of my life in general, just in terms through mentoring and coaching and different things like that. But that's kind of where that passion  started. 

Erica: [00:03:30] I can relate to Akilah with that too. For me it was high school as well. Just like my whole life friends, family would ask me for advice or my opinion about things. And I felt like they really value what I had to say. And I was like, I like that. I feel like I'm pretty good at this. I didn't really know it was a thing. And in high school, I'd take a course as an honors theology class and we talked about just our calling in life and what we can do to  better help humanity. And I thought, maybe I can be a child psychologist. That's what I wanted to do originally. And so when I went to school, I studied psychology. And then same thing, even in college friends, family asks for advice about things, just kind of became just my identity, like who I was to people. And then I had one friend in particular and she seemed to have a lot of just different personal issues, family stuff. And the more I got to know her. And she was sharing about her family stuff, I would think. Okay. That kind of makes sense of why these different things are happening. I thought, I wish I could just go to her family, sat everybody down, just like talk to her house. But never happened, but I didn't know at the time, I didn't know, there was such a thing as family therapy and then sorta from there, I kind of just did some research and found the program where I met Akilah.

 Taylor: [00:04:37] That's great. Learning how the two of you came together, how both of you have very similar stories in that you're both equally passionate about what you're doing. That's  awesome to hear and that you were both like, I grew up. I liked talking to people. I liked helping people. How do you fix that? And to focus into what you get? Because a lot of people struggle with figuring out what it is that they want to do, what they like to do and what they're called to do, that's a very big thing in  your twenties and thirties,  you figured out what you're going to do, is this where I'm supposed to be right now? And it's amazing that you both were able to find that. Cause I know I struggle myself with what is it I'm supposed to be doing in this day and age? I know I'm here.  It's just great to hear people who are passionate and they know.  as mental health professionals in the times of COVID with things that are really. No one has seen this before. No one knows exactly how they're supposed to pour through it. What is your relationship with mental health? The floor is open. 

Akilah: [00:05:39] I'll start. My relationship with mental health, honestly, just because I'm in the field. It's everything all day, every day, mental health, which I think is a good and a bad thing sometimes depending on what you're kind of dealing with. But I think my relationship now with mental health, I would say is a little bit stronger. In the case like I said, it's because we are in the pandemic pretty much kind of what we were talking about before. Everyone in some way may be struggling with their mental health because of the changes that we've had. And this is the first time that mental health professionals and the people they're working with are going through the same things at the same time. So  it's really so important to be mindful of our mental health, especially as a therapist, because not only am I. Like we're saying, dealing with what's going on, but also helping other people deal with it. So it really, if I'm not taking care of myself, my mental health, physical health, all that, I really can't help anybody. And that's just a general consensus. So really my relationship with mental health is to make sure that I'm doing positive self care.

 Erica: [00:06:48] No, I completely agree with you, Akilah.  We're in Houston and we were affected by that snow storm that we had a couple of weeks ago and we couldn't go to work. We couldn't do anything. You got the pandemic on top of that, this snow storm that we didn't have any powers. People didn't have any water. And the cell phone towers were down and all that. And So that week we couldn't work. And my sister she's a therapist too. And she was like, you know what? I just can't really deal. I don't want to hear what m y client's going through it. I'm going through it myself. She had the week off because we couldn't work. And then the next week she had to go back, but she's I just need like a whole nother week because I need to process this before my clients come in and want me to process this. So it's exactly what you said, Akila. And the way I think about mental health is it's everything. The moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.  Everything we do is part of our mental health.

 Justine: [00:07:33] For me, I haven't really thought about mental health until not even, when the pandemic started, it was actually because my mom unfortunately got COVID and had passed away from it. So that's when I felt. I really couldn't control cause obviously, you're grieving and such, but then after her death I had three more family members or Extended and immediate family members die within the next two months. So just all of that was just kind of going downhill, but even as an introvert, which Taylor and Amanda don't agree with I felt like I can handle the pandemic. Know everyone's kind of, going stir crazy, but I'm like, I'm fine with, being in doors and going along with government regulations and such.  In addition to also  living with a roommate, that was another important thing, because if I was living by myself, I definitely would have been going, crazy. And this is when I was living in Los Angeles as well. I would have been messaging Taylor and Amanda all the time. Hey, I need to talk to somebody. So I'm very grateful that I've had. I'm currently living with a roommate here in London too. So  we're going out, we're taking care of our physical, activities we're walking. And that definitely helps. I even took up jump roping during the pandemic too.  I think, getting that physical activity, like you said, Akila, is very important. But yeah , it didn't hit me until again, I had few family members pass away and that was just like, I need to do something. So that's when I looked into grief support groups and talking with  life coaches, I felt that really helped me as well, because then I got to figure out myself a little bit more and adjust my perspective. And so it was a very positive experience from, something very negative.

Amanda: [00:09:20] My relationship with mental health was pretty much non-existent. I want to say about two years ago had gone for my physical, my yearly physical, and it was the first time she'd gotten like a sheet of paper and it was asking me questions and to rate my number and I didn't really think anything of it. I just answered. And when I had gone to see the doctor, she basically scored up and she was like you're on the high end of mild depression. Apparently that's now part of physicals. They have to evaluate your mental health as well. And she basically kept asking, I can get you in contact with someone talk to you if you need it. And at the time I was just very much Oh, that's weird. Felt very awkward about talking to a complete stranger about issues. But Taylor and Justin e can tell you, I don't talk about, really about my feelings or anything like that.  It's not my strong area. I kept saying no. And when the pandemic came, I threw myself into my work. Like even more so than usual, I'm a very much a workaholic. And so I feel like I probably should talk to someone now, but it's the fact that I have no idea how to even start that. Where do I even go to look? So yeah that's my relationship with mental health. I need it. I probably need it, but. I just don't know where to go.

Taylor: [00:10:33] Yeah.  Like Amanda,  from a professional standpoint. Mental health and me never were a thing with the exception of Amanda, I went to my,  I was like 13 or 14 and my doctor's office had they started having a nurse practitioner and she sat me down in a room. They asked my mom to leave the room and she gave me the questionnaire to fill out and I filled it out and I gave it back to her. And. Opposite of Amanda. She was like, Oh my God, this is one of the best ones I've ever seen. Cause I was a happy child and it blew my mind at that point. I was like, Okay. Shouldn't more people be like this and it was weird. But now that as I've grown up, I realized that my family talks ad nauseum. And that's the thing that in conversations that I've had with Amanda, Justine, and other people, a lot of people don't do  the amount of talking and the level of talking that my family has done my entire life. Just check ins on. Okay. So every day when he came home from school, my mom was like, okay, how was school? How did you feel. X, Y Z tell me what happened. Around the dinner table we always set these conversations. So I never felt  there was anything missing or I needed more help until I got to college. And that was when everything  just shifted for me. Cause at that point, my freshman year of college, my grandmother got diagnosed with cancer and my father got diagnosed with cancer. So there was a whole bunch of stuff going on in my family. I was commuting. Coming home and helping take care of my grandmother. And  all of this stuff was like, all right, I need to get to that end goal. I went to college for. I still have to do that, but my family still needs me. And then like Amanda, I'm a workaholic. So on top of being, just going to school, I was in a whole bunch of different  clubs and activities. And then I started working and  the worst part has been my sleep cycle and it's essentially nonexistent in consistency. So  that has pulled over into weight gain and not sleeping through the night correctly and all of these different things. But I still try to be as positive as possible, but then with the pandemic, then it became the whole, okay. Don't touch people and I'm a huge hugger. And that was, it's still such a hard thing for me that I went a year without hugging my mother and we live in the same house. And that was just, it felt soul crushing. Like I could. Be in the space between you, between me and her. Yeah, but I'm still working full-time I'm going out. I work in a school, so we come home, everything comes right off, you take shower, and then I'm like, I love you, but I can't hug you. And that's as a tactile person, it took a long time for me to realize that was the focus of  my onset of depression, I don't, there's something missing and I don't know what it is and I don't know how to talk about it.

Justine: [00:13:31] Even though  I say that  I really hate hugs. I don't like receiving them from strangers and even from family, but when the pandemic is over, I am looking forward to hugging at least one person Just so that I can have a hug. I do miss it sometimes, but I don't need it all the time. Taylor does. 

Taylor: [00:13:52] Oh, yeah. Okay. I do need them all the time. Let's be real. Cause even at my job, my coworkers are like, that was how we started our morning. They would come in. Cause I was normally the first one there  I'm the school secretary.  And I'd be like, Hey, how you doing? Let's get through the day then dah hugs. Because you guys are teaching little people and I can not do that. But  now we're like, it's been forever. And the mood just everywhere is to blah. 

Erica: [00:14:18] I think there's things that we take for granted it's because you can't do it. That makes you be like, wow, I really miss that because we're so used to, so I didn't see my mom for a year. Yeah. So I saw her recently earlier this year, prior to that hadn't seen her for a year and I'm somebody who goes home pretty often every few months I see my family. And it was just the idea that you don't,  you see them, you always give hugs and it's Oh you can't because you can't see these people. And things like that. And for me, it wasn't so much of being around people that like my family, that I can't give them a hug and that way it was like, I live in a different state from them, so I can't even go see them at all.

Akilah: [00:14:56] Even with the holidays this year,  we have traditions , usually I'd go to  my one grandma for Thanksgiving and my other grandma for Christmas and we just didn't do that,  we had zoom things or some things, but  we couldn't go see them. So it was a little, it was hard. I can definitely say that.

Taylor: [00:15:13] Oh yeah,  we did a zoom Christmas with different parts of the family and  it was an interesting thing. Cause you're used to being all up on top of people and you're at someone's house and be like, okay, let's all go to their house and who's cutting up to who's doing this. And you're like, hi, greetings from the other side. What does good or proper mental health care look like  at the different levels. Like  what is basic? What can we all do? And then what should we really do when we have these issues that needs some real work on them? 

Erica: [00:15:47] I think that good mental health looks like having boundaries and limits. So taking care of yourself or knowing when you need rests. Know when you have to have that tough conversation or having a an internal checks and balance, and then also knowing when to ask for help and how to get it, because it doesn't look like everything's perfect. And you have it all together and you know how to do everything perfectly, but just recognizing when something might be off balance, is this relationship balanced ? Is it one-sided, am I comfortable with this? So really just having that internal checks and balance, then make sure that you're addressing those internal things that are going in, or those feelings that are coming up for you. It doesn't look like perfection or having it all together and, knowing all the right things to do, but at the very least just knowing when you need help and how to ask for that.

Akilah: [00:16:42] And I think to piggyback off of what Erica was saying, when you're getting into the more severe symptoms where,  they're truly impacting your day and your daily functioning. That's when you want to really get that professional help or reaching out to those who might know how to get the professional help. Amanda, like you were saying before, you just don't know where to start because there's so many resources and so many things, I usually tell people, start with your insurance company. Because it can be expensive if you don't. Look your insurance company. Sometimes they have directories and they'll say female ethnicity, what specific modality the therapist will use, because there's many different professionals and many different therapists in many different acronyms that you might all know, like Eric and I are MFTs were marriage and family therapist.  All professionals help, but the way they look at problems is different. That's really what it comes down to. So you can get a help from a marriage and family therapist, a licensed clinical social worker, which is LCSW, a licensed professional counselor, which is an LPC  so there's so many. Being in the field. I know all these acronyms. So I can imagine for people who aren't in the field, how confusing it can get to which person do I go to? Like, where do I start? What do I even do? But I would say when it gets to the more severe symptoms, that's when we really need to start reaching out for help. Like emergency wise,  this is impacting your daily functioning with emotionally, physically being able to do anything you should really reach out for help. And just kinda sum up in general,  what actual mental health does looks good, is taking care of yourself emotionally, psychologically, and socially,  how we relate to each other. And how we make decisions can affect our mental health.  Mental health and I'll say it again, it's everything. It impacts how we think, how we feel and what we do, cause I start getting down the therapist realm of  our thoughts, impact our feelings and our feelings impact what we decide to do. If I feel happy about something I'm going to do something joyful, but if I feel sad, I'm not going to do anything. So if we're able to change sometimes our thoughts and our feelings, we can change what we do, but it's a long rant of making sure to take care of that social, that physical. And that's  psychological realm of us who we are.

Justine: [00:19:03] And going back to Erica's, checks and balances.  How would you even start creating that list of your checks and balances and I guess analyzing yourself and saying, Oh, something's off. Cause Taylor, she brought out that hug and she's I don't know why I'm so depressed. And  I don't know how long it took you to figure out that it's because you really like hugs and interacting with people. So how do, where do we start with creating that checks and balance? 

Erica: [00:19:29] So one good place to start is knowing what your triggers are. Those things that upset you or those things that might take you over the edge. I think journaling is a good place to start because then you can  have that to reflect on because I think. A lot of us, probably the, let me go to bed. We think about our day and we reflect. And sometimes when you think about it, it's in your mind kind of just, disappear. But when you journal and write it down, you can track it and have something concrete to reflect on and look at. So that's a really good place to, to check if you don't just have it  for yourself, if you're not used to doing that and  checking in and being aware of your triggers starting with something small, like a journal would be a good way to, to go about that.

Akilah: [00:20:10] I would agree with Erica, write it down.  It gets too jumbled in our heads.  And then we start concentrating on something else. Just write it down. That's all I want to say. 

 Taylor: [00:20:19] I was thinking about when you said journaling. When we were growing when you were  little and they were always like, keep a journal. I always laughed at it because you think of  "dear diary".  And you're like, nah, that's not gonna help me. But as an adult, I'm like, I should have been journaling this whole time because I could have processed things so much better. And it took a long time.  I will start journaling now as an adult, but once my life gets hectic, I stop. And I realized that, cause  I can go a year from entry to entry point and be like, huh,  I'm feeling impassioned and I need to write what I'm doing now. And then go back to be like, Oh, I was feeling kind of the similar way before, but it's that learning hat. This is why I do need to figure out my own mental health help in that I am struggling to maintain those things. And that is, that has shown itself to me in how I'm doing things through the pandemic. And it's a thing that I don't know, many people from the different articles I've read, we're all struggling with, do something different. And, but at the same time, we're all going through the same thing. And it's just interesting for all these different, awesome points, but thank you guys for bringing up journaling.

Akilah: [00:21:28] That's something that I hear across the board. It's never usually about the skills that need to be implemented. Is that being able to be consistent with those skills. And it's really important.  It takes effort when you're starting something new. So it means  carving out  10 minutes a day, just for that,  setting your alarm. We all have alarms now that we can write  journal now or go take a walk.  It's very intentional to when you're trying to start something new. Cause it's so hard. I'm not even going to sit here and lie. Like I've been trying to exercise and every day and some weeks I'll go two, three weeks and then I'm falling off.  I  completely understand what you're saying Taylor. It is very hard sometimes to keep that consistency, especially when there's so much more going around. But the part that I would say is just even doing five minutes of it is doing something.

Erica: [00:22:18] And there's even those moments when you can look back and know. Okay. I felt really good, at that point in my life. And now, I mean, I don't feel so good. And so a lot of therapists will ask the question of What was working or what were you doing then? What has changed, but when you're not in therapy or if you don't know those questions, you might not think to ask yourself that. Or if you're talking to a friend, your friend might not think to ask yourself that. So with that journal, you can look back and  reflect that, I was feeling really good and I can look back and see that this is what was working for me. And also it's in a way when I think about it, when you go to therapy, like your therapist keeps notes and it sorta just helps them to keep track and keep you progressing and moving forward, it's kind of like that in a way. If you think about it, it's your own little therapy notes, you can look back and  see where you are and check in.

 Taylor: [00:23:06] Oh yeah. And checking in has been a big thing of just keeping in touch with people and communicating. Through everything with the the pandemic and all that we're going through. So thank you guys for that.  You're both women of color, both millennials, both educated with masters degrees, women. How was mental health discussed in your own cultures growing up in your own families? Because I know with between me, Justine and Amanda, we each had very different backgrounds growing up with very different conversations around mental health and seeking help in everything. And it's very interesting when you look at the demographics of, as people of color, trying to find a therapist who is similar to your background, who will understand, who'll be able to better connect with you and you'll feel a bit more comfortable with, it's harder to find in this day and age and you'd think it would be. So how did coming out of your own background gets you to where you are today?

Erica: [00:24:18] So in my house and this is no shade, but it really wasn't discussed mental health wasn't something that was discussed. It was what happens in this house, stays in this house and that's  how it was. I knew for me, There was a guidance counselor at my school. And that was pretty much the extent of it for me, of what I knew. I would see things on the news and we watched news as a family and maybe somebody would do something . And my family looks saying, Oh, wow, that person's crazy. Something's wrong with them. But there was no talk about the mental health of it all. It wasn't really something that was discussed. It's something that I just on my own. Personally there's things that I did. Like  I was always involved with like sports and activities. I journal, I was singing things like that, that I would do to kind of manage my own mental health, but it was not a big discussion in my house. And even now in the field as a professional there's still family members that know what I do. And some will ask me questions, but still every now and then you might hear that slip about mental health, like Oh, mental health, seeing a therapist, I'm not going to do that. And I'm like what do you think about what I do? But it, it's still not something that's big in my family. It's big in the sense that it's there, but big not that we talked about it. 

Akilah: [00:25:35] I would have to agree with Erica pretty much similar experiences. It wasn't talked about when I was younger, again, what happens in this house stays in this house. And I think that's culturally, in the black community, that's just the phrase that you will often hear. It wasn't until I was going to college, that therapy was more discussed because I was going into that profession and there are a few family that are like, Oh do you really want to do that? Is that something that you really want to be a part of? In regards to  just from, they don't make much money. And I mean, if you're coming into the helping profession, you don't expect to make much money anyway. But from that end to Oh What are you just going to have to talk to people like what it was really kind of this idea that like therapy and therapist weren't valued. But when I was in college,  I actually did go to a therapy session with my mom and  it was an interesting experience because  it was college, but that was my first  real therapy example experience in my life. So no,  same as Erica. We don't talk about it now. I will say I, I force it on my family a little bit,  not tough for the forced them to talk about their feelings and things like that. But yeah. My brain doesn't switch off from therapy. A lot of times I try, but it's the way I viewthe world. So when my mom, my brothers, I'm always like what do you think? What do you think the other person was thinking? How do you think that made them feel? Or if I'm watching a movie, I'm like w what's the other perspective of this? It's really hard to turn it off sometimes. So we definitely talk about it more now than growing up. It was just non-existent.

Erica: [00:27:13] I really want to go off of what you said. About those movies because over the years I've watched lifetime movies and I really don't like the way people with a mental health diagnosis are portrayed on lifetime and it's not just lifetime, but I just watch a lot of lifetime movies, but you'll have that, dark music that comes on, you have the character, taking a bunch of pills, they're doing these crazy things. And then, They'll cut to a scene there in the mirror and they had splashed her face with water and they're, all medication, it's all these things and they're always  the villain.   It makes me really uncomfortable. Like those movies, I watch them they're entertaining and all that, but it says a lot about how we perceive mental health or people that have a mental health diagnosis.

Taylor: [00:27:55] Oh, yeah. And in one of our previous episodes, we talked about how we each hate the way media portrays  our own demographics. And that  it makes me wonder, has any, form of media TV show, movie play even have they touched upon mental health accurately in your opinion?  Not counting the six different iterations they've done of  Sybil.  United States of Tara. I know they did dissociative identity disorder. One of the musicals next to normal touched upon schizophrenia. Has there ever been anything that you guys have seen that has been an accurate portrayal or is it all just that lifetime over done?

Erica: [00:28:39] There's a show I watched a long time ago Parenthood. And it had a little bit of everything there. The little boy in the show, he had autism and they showed how he interacted and socialized with his family. His peers at school, they showed him going to therapy, how it impacted his family members. And then they had just different family relationships that were going on. Throughout the show. I haven't watched it in a long time, but that's one of the first shows that came to my mind. So I was, I would say that one. 

Akilah: [00:29:10] I have to a hundred percent agree with Eric on that one,  Parenthood was a really good depiction of family dynamics and mental health. Honestly, nowadays I feel the best depiction for mental health comes from people who blog about it because they're living it. To be able to tell you , this is what it is from my perspective, this is how I'm dealing with it. Where the media is, taking a snapshot of all. . Outside of Parenthood. I really don't know of anything else. There's probably some, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

 Taylor: [00:29:43] Okay. That's good. Just to know what is an accurate and what is an overplayed thing? A lot of times you can tell when this is just crazy out of. Completely out of the realm of what is reality and what is being played up for  ratings and things like that. But it's good to be able to go with that lens and see that this is more of what should be on TV and what other, what should be a touchstone for others shows and things. But knowing that it's  always better from the source. It's better to look and see if people like this is what I'm struggling with. This is how you need to understand how to interact with people like that. 

Akilah: [00:30:21] I want to add to that because I feel there's a growing trend and I know that it's not so much with millennials, but like the younger generation. A growing trend  on Tik TOK and different things. So ultimately getting together with people who have also had, had been through the same traumas as you, but not really working on anything, but this is what it is. This is kind of where we're staying. We're not going to work on this. We're not going to get better. And it's very dangerous sometimes when most of the time it's a very dangerous place to be because then other things might be talking about what. Help unhealthy coping skills and different ways to kind of keep in that trauma,  which isn't a good thing. 

Justine: [00:31:02] And just, I guess the opposite, right? Cause that was a negative thing that they're doing Tik Tok. Yeah. So with my recent  grief support group most of the people that were in there were actually around my age and have experienced obviously a death in the family, but there is even this one, one person who had multiple within the same year as well. So I felt at least I can connect with,  that person. And they all just happened to be female as well. So it was really interesting versus my other group in LA, it was a range of  people and  the years that they've been grieving have been like two or three years already versus again, my group here was more recent. So I felt I was able to connect with them and  empathize and really understand how they're feeling because  we  have a very similar timeframe and again, similar age. It is really interesting and I feel more  and Taylor and Amanda know this too, but I guess with that group, I felt more comfortable with sharing what's been going on versus the other group. Cause again, it's just a huge span. And here again, it's really close. But in general, I feel like I can talk to strangers more than I can talk to Amanda and Taylor and close  family members. I know that I won't be judged by them. I know that it's a safe space. I know that Taylor and Amanda won't judge me either, but they're just so much closer. And even  with my pen pals too, that I will share some  deep stuff. And I know I'm reaching out to you cause I know you won't judge me on this and I know that we've talked about this before and at least we've got that same wavelength kind of thing.

Akilah: [00:32:48] I know sometimes it's hard to talk to the people who are closest to us because the people closest to us want to take care of us. We often don't want to put that on them to make them feel like, Oh, I want to, I have to take care of her where you're in your group. They're just going to listen and they're going to relate. Like they're not going to try to fix which isn't a bad thing from our families, but sometimes it's just can be too much.

Taylor: [00:33:09] We did tend to want to take care of you Justine we're sorry, but we're glad that you found a place that you could speak to people. Why do you think that even in the 21st century, when we've got all of this data, we have all of his information telling us that these are real issues that literally one out of five adults is struggling with some sort of mental health illness within a year's time that you know them. Why is there still such a stigma on mental health in all of our communities?

Akilah: [00:33:48] I think it  comes back to  what we've been talking about is people just don't want to. Appear quote, unquote, crazy. So going to a therapist, that's still such a big thing. Going to a therapist, what, how can a therapist help me? How can they relate to me? What are we going to do? Is it therapy is just still seen as I'm paying someone to talk to. When it's really more of we're providing number one, we don't give advice. Everybody thinks that we give advice.  We don't tend to give advice at all. Even in classes where taught don't give advice. That's not the thing we actually do. Like we are really there to help provide you with skills, other healthy coping skills, as well as helping you maybe to change your perspective of things, and then you are able to make that decision within your own life.  But outside of that, and just within the communities, my community and the community that I work in, there's a lot of. It's not necessarily the stigma of mental health, but about their negative experiences with mental health or with the system that they think mental health is in. When you're talking about specifically working with kids and parents. So when we're talking about in Jersey DCPNP or in Philly, DHS, which is the  Dyphus and things like that,  going through those systems, sometimes we'll put parents. who were very negative experience with mental health. And even now going to get to Philly, like we're a new agency. So we're like, Oh, trying to reel. We're poor. All of that. And they're like, you guys are all the same. All your therapists, all your parents therapists do is judge. All you do is want to put us on medication. So there's, it's not just the mental health stigma, but the negative experiences people have had with mental health in the past that really have. Put a label on people that they just don't trust it. So it's a really a big barrier to why I think there's still such a big issue with  mental health and therapy in general.

Erica: [00:35:48] And I completely agree with what you had to say. Akilah, thinking about that question. It's such a big question. I don't even know where to start with it, but I agree it's the negative experiences. And I think as far as the stigma, I think just in general, we don't want to be looked at as we can't do something, I can't manage my life on my own or I can't help my kids, with this issue. So sometimes even going to therapy, I know I've worked with some families where the parent was still  having a hard time with the fact that. I'm here and I do need help with my kids, with this issue. So I think it's sorta similar to a lot of different areas in our life where we just don't want to feel like we just can't like as a sign of weakness or something, you know that we can't do this. Not that we can't do it, but like you said, Akilah, maybe you just don't know this skills. Of how are the skills that you already have of how to do it or where to start or how you can use the resources that you have to achieve and accomplish that goal that you're trying to try to get to, or that thing that you're struggling with.

Justine: [00:36:54] Yeah. And I would say, just from my experience, I wouldn't tell my aunts if I was doing like a grief support group or going to therapy, just because I want them to think of me as a really strong person, because I am in a completely different country right now. And, I've always been that independent type of person. And I only go to them if I need help or if I need something. And so that's kind of the relationship that we have, but  I've known that my brother  is a little bit more sensitive. But I've actually shared with him that I've done a grievance support group and I've Hey, if you, I need somebody to talk to, why don't you go and try to do that too. But obviously I don't force that on him, but with him, I'll share that. But that's probably the extent of it. Cause I still want to seem like the strong, bigger sister. Who's pretty independent. 

Akilah: [00:37:50] And I think to your point Justine, and that's kind of how we change that stigma of mental health is kind of talking when you're, when you've gone through it and has the therapy is talking to, I feel like more of the younger generation, because the older generation, we can talk to them, but they sometimes are like, not so receptive, but in sometimes they are, but talking to our family members about our positive experiences with it and kind of, this is what it is it's nothing to it's really just, it is like we're having a conversation, but I think sharing those positive things like you did was such a great.

Erica: [00:38:22] Yeah, I agree. And I think it demonstrates a strength to go and admit that I need assistance with this, because that's one of the perceptions of mental health is that it's a weakness to go when in reality, it's really a good thing to see  that there's nothing wrong with dealing with our issues. There's nothing wrong with dealing with the issues. That's actually a sign that there's something good that's the right thing. You're thinking about it in the right way that I see this issue and I want to deal with it because we can sit and we suffer trying to be, strong and it's, we kind of just stay in the same spot when we can do something about it. 

Justine: [00:38:59] Yeah, definitely. And there are times when  I still wish I had my Life coach. And because she gave me  a lot of exercises to again, think about myself  and then that way I can make a choice on how I want to change it and the different perspective. And sometimes I'm just, sitting down and just staring into the mirror and I'm like,  why do I feel this way or something like that? And  I wish I had that someone that I can, talk to separate from Amanda and Taylor. And just because again, you have that comfortability in  that person is not really judging me. 

Taylor: [00:39:33] Piggyback off of Justine. And then what you guys had mentioned earlier. When Justine had gone through having a life coach, it was something completely new and out of left field for me. I was like, I thought I knew a lot of different coping mechanisms and  places to get help from. And I was like, what is this life coach thing?  I had to research it on my own and be like, okay, this is something pretty cool. I haven't gotten one of my own yet because  I still have to organize myself other and other ways, but I'm like, okay, this is something really good to look at. And then even you explaining the different types of therapists. I did not really. I was never given that information. Just I just thought I need to go see a therapist. I'm just going to look up therapy.  I know there's couples therapy and I know there's individual therapy, but even just the different levels of else. LCSW MFT. Like I never knew the thousands of different iterations that you guys have. And I'm like, this is amazing information. And I wish that at some point, this had been provided to me, even  in school, just explaining to us, these are the different types of you here, that you can be a therapist. Okay. That's cool. But what are the different types that I can be, or even go to this person can help you with that? Just having the information out there is something that could do wonders I feel like for more people. 

Justine: [00:40:58] Yeah. And then,  going with Amanda's thing,  I don't know where to look. I don't know where to start. Cause then that would be so intimidating and  you're looking up on the internet and yeah. you think of the  typical way of having a therapist. And it's just, there's so many options, where should I start? Where can I, which path do I go on? It's just, Ooh. Too much 

Erica: [00:41:19] Yeah. And I think that's why Akilah made the point that Justine was talking about this her experience with her brother. And just like you talk about it with Taylor that I have this life coat, so you can say, Oh wow, what's this life coach. I didn't even know about that.  Cause there is some shame around getting help and having mental health diagnosis and all these things. But if that was diminished, then more people will feel comfortable to say, Hey, I have a therapist. They're awesome. Here's their information. But a lot of times we don't. Often do that because I have a therapist and I always get excited to tell people like this is my therapist, she's awesome.  I know somebody, I can help you get connected different things like that. And also sometimes I know it's difficult kind of being on both ends, kind of being in the therapist, chair, and then also being the client. I know it's difficult. It's not always easy. I know it's not easy, but other times I look at therapy as a luxury sometimes because it's like, you have this person that you can just talk about things with, and it's a safe space, granted you have somebody that you trust that's a good one. And it really reminded me of it being a luxury when you said, Oh, let's just coach. Like I want a life coach, somebody to help me, it's a good thing, but I know sometimes we look at it, it's Oh, I have to go. Or I have this issue that I have to go, but on the other side, I recognize that there's really difficult, tough things that circumstances that happened that you feel like you need to go, but you do get to go and have somebody help you to navigate, whatever you have going on. Even though it is a difficult thing that, you may be going in there to talk about. 

Justine: [00:42:57] And even if you're  dreading to go Oh, I have to go. Cause there are times when I'm like, I don't want to go to this week session, but every time, I go to the session and you finish and it's just, I'm so happy I did go because there's those internal things that you didn't think it was building up and it's just okay, it's all out now. I'm good for the rest of the week.

 Akilah: [00:43:19] One thing to add to what you guys have been saying. It's just, I feel like when it comes to therapy, people are like, Oh one and done, but we don't do that with if we have a negative standards I'm done with this forever, but if you had an ex negative experience with a physician, you're not going to the doctor again forever, like you find another doctor. So I really try to. Say to everyone it's like it. One of the most important things about therapy is the therapeutic relationship. Because if you don't feel comfortable with your therapist is that it's not going to work. Therapy just doesn't work like that is just my philosophy about therapy. So if you don't have a good relationship or you don't feel comfortable within the first couple of sessions, Look for somebody else and keep looking until you find somebody that you can relate to because therapy is so valuable. And again, I guess I'm a little biased, but still therapy is so valuable for everybody can really help. It's just really important to keep trying to find someone you feel comfortable talking to because you are talking about very vulnerable and hard topics that you might not have ever told anyone in your life before. So the most important thing I think is making sure that you feel uncomfortable with your therapist.

Taylor: [00:44:27] Oh yeah. Finding someone comfortable and being open with them is something that. All of us struggle with, because that's, we're not given the words. We're not taught how to express ourselves in a way to say, this is what I need and how do I get something that's going to help me with it.  We've touched on a couple of different things, but we want to come to you from  a question about diversity on this one. And how do you feel in comparison to your  compatriot, coming to the plate as women of color in this field. How did you feel in your education and your CEOs, like going to conferences and stuff like that? If you've done that, how do you feel occupying that space as a person of color?

Erica: [00:45:20] Our class was majority women of color. So that was exciting for me. I felt empowered. I felt proud to be a part of that cohort. So even our professors, majority were women of color.  I remember doing different trainings that I've attended and I've seen women from our school running those conferences. So I always felt like a cheerleader,  really proud and excited  about that. Different jobs that I've had, it hasn't always been that way. First job I had, I think I was the only black clinician there. But even though that was the case for me, that's how I grew up. That's how the schools, I went to my elementary schools, my high school and my college, it was like that grad school was the first time that it was different.  I was so used to it. It wasn't something that really stood out to me. I knew I was the only black therapist there, but I feel like it, it worked to my advantage because there were clients that would come in that wanted to work with me. I was happy that I could be there and, work with those clients.

 Akilah: [00:46:17] Very similar to Erica grad school, I think was the most, I guess if we're talking about diversity in terms of community, it was the most I've been around people who looked like me and not just the students, the faculty, like I don't, I think there was probably a less diversity in terms of like males. Cause this is very female dominated field, but that was just so awesome to see, to learn and to be mentored by women of color. Because that is hard.  In undergrad, I think I had one professor who was, he was black male who I was in his lab and like that was it. So I don't think that so much impacted, I don't think my psych classes really was impacted so much in terms of  diversity or  adversity, like against that. It was more  if it was undergrad, it was more like my power and privilege classes where you're getting into those really hard topics about racism and systemic racism with everyone.  I was going to say I'm a little bit more privileged in the sense that have had such great experience of diversity within my classes.  Even at work, I would say even at my current position, we have It's just a completely diverse males, females like race sexual orientation, like it's completely diverse, which I know a lot of people can't say that. And,  I'm definitely aware of that. I'm happy that I'm in a place of that because we're able to provide really great services to everybody and anybody. But I do know from different colleagues who are like, how they've been racially, discriminated against it, work and different things like that. And it really can impact our work as therapists. We're trying to help people while dealing with, again,  these other pressures or how we're perceived in the communities. In non diverse, I said, it's workplaces. It can be really hard and really straining, but I will say I think what's, again, going back to social media,  it's been a place to connect with other therapists of color, like Erica and I are currently in a group chat with how many Oh, I can't even, I don't even know. I think there's seven of us.  Black female therapist ranging from master's level to doctorate level giving out resources and helping each other.  We're truly trying to connect instead of compete. We're all trying to connect with our resources and it's been such a  sigh of relief, to be surrounded by that.

Justine: [00:48:42] That's amazing. Yay. Glad you had that experience. 

Taylor: [00:48:49] It's great to hear that because I have to say in the people that we have had on our podcasts like that, we've known  from us growing up in a  semi super diverse town where it came to friendship, not like your powers, that be, they were still very monochromatic, but in what we grew up around, it's great to hear that this generation is getting to go out into a world that is. Becoming more and more accepting or is starting to look more like what the world actually is. And that we're occupying those spaces and being able to connect with each other. And you said something very important. You said we're not competing with each other. And that's what the world is constantly doing to us when we're in those spaces. And it makes you fight. It makes you not want to be. Connected to these people who look like you or, are from another minority background. And it's great to hear that you guys are in those spaces and you're getting help, like getting that leg up that, making sure that if I've gotten here, I'm going to help bring other people up to where I am so that we can help more people and just keep this process moving and get us all going in the same direction. It really does warm your heart to hear these things. 

Justine: [00:50:03] Yeah. And to hear, your classes be very diverse as well is great and for just picking somebody to speak to because when I was looking for a life coach, majority of the people were much older, white, whether male or female.  I didn't realize how important it was for me to have somebody who's diverse until looking for that. Cause I was just like, I don't want to speak to another white person.  I ended up picking someone who's Asian and at least she was able to really relate to the cultural points that I would bring up such as you don't talk about these things because  in Asian cultures, you don't share those types of feelings. So it was really great to find somebody to really understand where I'm coming from. 

Taylor: [00:50:54] As we're winding down,  do you guys have any  final bits of advice for your fellow millennials that are out here listening to us on how to maintain their mental health or any, anything you want to share with us?

 Erica: [00:51:05] Kayla, we've been doing this for a while together. I feel like you've read my mind at this point. So you started to touch on it a little bit.  But the same way you have your PCM, your primary, your care manager, your primary doctor, you have to have a therapist. And the way I see it is you have your  PCM, it's there. You don't see them every week. You probably see them once a year or as needed. With your therapist, it's good to have somebody just that you've met with. That you're comfortable with that you like, so that when you get to a point where you feel like you need to go, or you want to go, you're not scrambling frantically at the last minute, trying to find somebody, cause you can go online and find somebody. And meet with that person and feel like no, that's not a good fit for me. They have to meet somebody else. But the issue that's going on is right now, you want to meet with them now. So I would say take the time to have somebody, go have some sessions with them. There's always something you could talk about. We say all the time, you don't have to be in crisis to go talk to a therapist. You can just go have a check-in, find somebody. So that would be my recommendation. Just like you have your PCM, have your therapist. Something comes up. You have somebody that, you can count on and you can go make that appointment and talk to. 

Akilah: [00:52:16] As Erica said, we have done this a long time and read each other's mind because I was literally writing that, Oh, I can add, Oh, you don't have to go to therapy when there's a crisis. I think it's really good to have a self-care routine. Whatever that. Means per se. And self care is such a big buzzword right now. What is it actually? I think a lot of people get the depiction of self care as, Oh,  let me go take this bubble bath and I'll be fine. Not that bubble bath in our self care cause they definitely are. But that is not the only thing that should be you should be doing and calling it self care. Self care is really about, doing the things that work best for you because you can Google and you'll find a million self care routines and different things that work for different people, but you really want to tailor it to what works for you. So what I would say is we're talking about self care you want to touch on. Physical. So that's sleep, exercise, going to the doctors. Then you want to touch on your mental health, which is, appropriate communication, boundaries, going to therapy. If that's something, we're going to say go to therapy, but go to therapy in terms of that and really challenging thoughts  and being able to express what you need, if you want. And then socially. Interacting with other people, it doesn't have to be like 20, like all a huge crowd of people, but like interacting with your friends, interacting with your family, bouncing ideas off of them, and then spiritually too, for people who do follow religion and different things like that, going to church, watching YouTube talking to other people within your faith, like you really want to be fostering positive connections in all four realms. And that is what mental wellness is. So definitely important to take at least five minutes a day to do something that will help your mental health and start your self care routine.

Justine: [00:54:07] Taylor. Are you taking a lot of notes on that?

Taylor: [00:54:11] I am. I am. That's why my arms are moving. I know. I know that's that is the one, like I said, 2021,  I'm learning how to sleep properly and not just pass out. That's that's my thing.  

 You guys have given us so much to think about.  I just wanna say thank you. On behalf of all three of us. I know, Justine, Amanda probably thinking the same way. Kind of like how you two are reading each other's minds, the three of us do. We just want to thank you for all of your advice. Oh, shut up. You still are an extrovert and we're going to have that 

Justine: [00:54:55] prove you wrong. Prove you wrong.

Taylor: [00:55:01] Thank you guys so much for coming out for agreeing to do this for giving us your time and your professional opinions and being present in this field also for everybody. Cause I said to Akilah, I don't know if I had said that when we were still recording, but you guys are an essential worker. That's not getting any airtime and that is just unacceptable and we salute you guys. We snaps, we clap.  Give them those rounds of applause, you guys definitely need it. Thank you for being out and helping people who definitely need it and being able to fill that gap that people need.

Erica: [00:55:38] Thank you for having us. I feel honored to be a part of this with you all today. 

Akilah: [00:55:42] Thank you so much for having us. Cause I, I was talking to Erica and I was like, Oh we're actually being interviewed this time. How do we do this? So thank you for giving us the opportunity to have to do that as well as the opportunity to talk about such a important topic. So thank you guys. 

Erica: [00:55:56] Yeah, definitely.  I just had the whole back because we're used to be on the other side where we  have questions. I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna ask questions. I'm gonna answer questions. But then if that's even being on this end where I'm usually the question asker. 

Akilah: [00:56:09] When you guys started talking about more of your personal stuff, I was Oh wow. I feel like I should like really thank them right now for being so vulnerable.

Justine: [00:56:16] Well I also feel like we do need to thank people for sharing,  those deep feelings, because most of the times they're very scared to share that. I think even for Taylor and Amanda, sometimes we do go, thank you for sharing that. Because again it's that positive.

Taylor: [00:56:31] Reinforcement positive. 

Justine: [00:56:32] Yes. Positive reinforcement. So yeah, always it's great to, I think everyone should be saying, thank you for sharing that. I know that was very hard, to share, but thank you so much. 

Akilah: [00:56:43] That's definitely something I say every time I am in an evaluation, I was just like, thank you so much. I know how hard so you're absolutely right guys. Awesome. Awesome. To hear that you guys are doing that.

Thanks for listening to United AF as friends with us. And once again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our wonderful Hearts Chat guests, Erica and Akilah. Thank you.

Thank you. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like comment and share our conversation with your friends and family and our social media pages. Join us next time. As we talk about the influential women in our lives.